Is it illogical to vote? Here's the problem that I have.

All votes are not considered equal.  Yes, you read that right.

The problem lies with that fact that presidents are not chosen by simply tabulating all the votes and awarding the election to the person that receives the most votes.  Instead, they are chosen by adding up the number of state delegates that his party wins.   This is where the problem lies.

In order for your vote to be considered equal to the next person's vote, you'd have to live in a state that has a voting population demographically equal to the country's as a whole.  Ie. If 50% of the country votes Republican, 40% votes Democrat and 10% votes Independent, then your own district needs to vote the same way, otherwise you're not being treated equally.

The problem is amplified during local elections, where the sample size of voters is smaller, and the local demographics are more likely to be different than the national demographics..

Here's the problem:  Let's say you are a Republican and live in an overwhelmingly Democratic state such as New York.  Let's say, for argument's sake, that Republicans are 20% of voters and Democrats are 80%.  Your vote has a low chance of affecting the choice of President, because it has to overcome a larger block of resistance in your state than would be considered fair (a fair block of resistance would mean the size of the Democratic vote in NY would equal the size of the Democratic vote in the nation) .

The vote would be drowned out by the Democratic votes that are disproportionately concentrated in NY state.  It will never be fairly counted towards the presidential vote because the presidential vote isn't a popular vote-it results from the addition of delegates from each statewide vote.  So, you can have a president that receives 55% of the popular vote yet receives the vote in 80% of the states.

Is that fair? Of course not. This idea has been pointed out by others.

What I HAVEN'T seen pointed out, however, is the reality that in effect, this means that individual voters in districts unrepresentative of the nation are in effect treated UNequally. 

Kind of like someone who's told "sure, you can go vote, but your vote will only be counted as 2/5 of the next person's vote".  

There's been so much said and done about ending discrimination related to race and gender, yet somehow society does nothing about ending discrimination related to voting.  Society doesn't just do nothing; they don't even talk about it; they don't seem to even realize it.
Not Unique Name
11/1/2010 07:49:50 am

Of course it's unfair. The powers that be over in Congress and that state legislatures want to be re-elected, so they gerrymander the districts to serve their party/selves.

It's much easier to win when you disperse the votes of the opposite party and allow your party to basically own the districts when the time comes to vote.


And the sad thing is, it's completely legal.

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Dave C.
11/2/2010 03:38:24 pm

Of course you don't address the situation of doing away with the electoral college and then having the president chosen by a handful of states, no matter how the other states vote. It's kind of nice how you just whizzed right on past that.

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11/2/2010 03:42:23 pm

Dave,

are you referring to a purely popular vote? Why would you think it's unfair for people to have equal votes, regardless of what state they live in?

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Anonymous
11/11/2010 04:00:42 pm

The United States is not a democracy, but rather a republic. The founding fathers wanted to avoid the "tyranny of the majority" by dividing power, requiring supermajorties for amending constitution (3/4 of states, either large or small) and other means. It worked well for 200 plus years. (The constitution does not mandate how the electors shall be chosen by the state legislatures, or the winner take all method currently used in I believe 48 of 50 states).

On another topic, the logic of saying no such thing as opinion--it is just crazy when dealing with the real world outside of numbers.

For example, saying that some solution is logical because it is better "in the long run" is based on the premise that you can define what is "better"--is an invention that produces more food immediately better and , when on the negative side it also results in soil depletion and reduced productivity "over the long run", but prevents starvation in the short run?? How does one judge and evaluate the possible outcomes to get the "best" outcome? What is your opinion??

For a long time those believing in communism, or "scientific socialism", backed up their opinions with "facts" (no, Im not accusing you or any of that) but you seem rather self-righteous in feeling that your thought process is based on your alleged intelligence which leads you to worship on the god of "logic". There were many intelligent people in history who sincerely believed that their opinions were logical and those opposed were wrong and should be oppressed or eliminated or sent to mental asylums.

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Anonymous
11/11/2010 04:00:56 pm

Here's the problem: Let's say you are a Republican and live in an overwhelmingly Democratic state such as New York. Let's say, for argument's sake, that Republicans are 20% of voters and Democrats are 80%. Your vote has a low chance of affecting the choice of President, because it has to overcome a larger block of resistance in your state than would be considered fair (a fair block of resistance would mean the size of the Democratic vote in NY would equal the size of the Democratic vote in the nation) .

So, Lets say NY has 10 electoral votes just to make this easy. Since 80% of the voters are dem, roughly 80% of the electoral votes for that state would be dem, 20% republican. Now maybe NY has a bigger electoral vote than other states, but that does not change the power of your personal vote just because your state has 2 electoral votes. If you live in NY you have a high population of people, lets say 100 to make it easy (lol). Your vote would count as 1% of the states vote. Say Road Island has 10 people. Your vote would count as 10% of that states vote. You have a much bigger effect on how that state leans, but that state also has a less of an effect on the presidential choice to balance it out. Is this perfect? NO, your vote will never be worth the exact same as some1 else. Nothing is perfect, get over it.
I do believe the voting system needs a big change. The president should be elected purely on total popular vote. This is not the big issue in my mind. During this last mid-election most people I talked too had no clue about most of the people on the ballet, they purely voted based on the party the person was associated to. Have you ever met one repub/dem that you 100% agreed with about everything? So when you put a check mark next to this random person that is in your party, who's to say that there is one issue that totally screws this country over. I believe that there should be no names written on the ballet, instead you should have to write the persons name down. If you do not know the name of the person you are voting for, he/she should not be getting your vote. This would also keep elections less biased, because no one who is not on the ballet gets elected. You have to pay a huge amount of $$$ to put your name on a piece of paper.

The United States is not a democracy, but rather a republic. The founding fathers wanted to avoid the "tyranny of the majority" by dividing power,

At the moment we only have only two powers, Democrats and republicans rather than the more obvious senate, house, pres, judge. That is not a very divided system. One power easily gains complete control over the government as was seen in the last democrat power trip and this future republican power trip.

This brings me to my final point. The one leap this country needs to take is to get rid of the party mentality all together. As I stated before, no one person believes the same as another. All someone has to do is write Dem or rep next to their name, and get votes/ win. This was proven in the last election, where several republicans were elected simply to spite the democratic party.... Is that really how we want to run our country??????

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11/11/2010 04:01:15 pm

Anonymous,

thanks for the well reasoned argument.

I explain in the thread below that everything is objective in two senses:

http://nosuchthingasanopinion.blogspot.com/2010/11/bizarre-world-of-racial-hyphenation.html

1) You define "subjective" concepts by surveying people as to what they consider to be it's definition.

You might counter by saying that this implies that some concepts and words are truly subjective.

Well, if we let that become an impediment, we'd have to rule out perhaps the entire English language, which contains words that can be defined differently to different degrees.

We don't let inherent language "subjectivity" prevent us from claiming that something is objective. Most people consider colors to be objective, but really, it's subjective, based on perception by the person.

However, you don't hear people claim that colors are subjective. We simply use the most common definition (perception) of a color and claim that is what "blue" is.

2)The sum of evidence existing somewhere either supports, or doesn't support, any given view.

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Reader 80
11/11/2010 04:01:37 pm

The only way I could see an opinion work in some stretch is for the ill informed.
If someone does not have very much information on a topic they could believe a certain thing is best. More of a guess less of an opinion, but since there is no such thing as a opinion, maybe that can take its place.

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Anonymous
11/11/2010 04:01:49 pm

"The sum of evidence"-nosuch

Evidence can not be "summed" as in a simplified binary world, but is evaluated subjectively based on "a priori" assumptions of the evaluators.

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11/11/2010 04:03:21 pm

Anonymous,

evidence can be measured in all respects, and the bias of the evaluator can be accounted for.

Read the thread about Racial Hyphenation for an explanation.

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Anonymous
11/14/2010 05:35:59 pm

"evidence can be measured in all respects, and the bias of the evaluator can be accounted for."-no such

Again you fall into the trap of trying to apply mathematical formulas to human behavior--mathematical formulas are based on the universal language of numbers, human behaviors and emotions are more complex, described by words which are imperfect representations of reality , and of course vary slightly in their translation into different languages, sort of like the chaos theory but insoluble.

And the bias of the evaluator of the evaluator??--or to use a more famous phrase, who watches the watchmen?? Or do I assume you are unbiased as is everyone who agrees with you??--(lol)

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11/14/2010 05:37:07 pm

Anonymous,

did you read the thread about Racial Hyphenation?

You can reduce most, if not all things, to numbers. Just poll for answers. What could be better than that, when it comes to supposedly subjective topics?

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1/4/2011 04:50:38 pm

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1/6/2011 06:42:44 pm

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3/4/2011 02:51:00 pm


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